An Open Letter on NARAL, Message, and Polarization

Update [2008-5-15 15:44:38 by Falsehood]: - There is a controversy in the comments on if this violates the site rules:
*Users who are bashing or attacking any other user on the site, including authors of diaries and frontpage postings, will be banned. *Titles of diaries should not be inflammatory, call out other users or the site, and will be deleted if not edited out, and the user banned.
I don't think I'm calling out Alegre in the way the rules describe, nor do I think I am attacking Alegre. This diary is, in essence, a giant comment. However, I can understand that interpretation of the title rules, so I've changed the name. /Update [2008-5-15 15:44:38 by Falsehood]:

Dear Alegre,

As I write this, your diary "Tell NARAL They're Wrong," http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/14/2324 41/858 is coming down off of the rec list, where many of your diaries reach. I certainly haven't been blogging here for a while, and I'll be the first to say that I don't have any progressive blog "cred," but I hope my comments and thoughts over the past few days have shown me to be someone who is approaching you honestly, without looking to disrespect or troll.

I'm also male. I don't have a sense the way you do of many of these issues, and I don't have the same experiences for you. I don't know what it's like to be forced against brick while standing in a line, protecting a clinic. I don't have much choice cred either, and I'm not going to pretend that I know more about this issue then you do.

But even with those caveats, I don't understand how your stories of trial justify your feelings of outrage and betrayal NARAL's endorsement. I hear you that Clinton has done hard work to support choice, and that you value that, especially given your own experiences. However, NARAL's goal and purpose is to defend abortion rights - and they endorsed the candidate they felt would do that best.

You wrote that you weren't sure why the national PAC made the call on their own. Don't most national PAC's make a solo call? Aren't individual states groups free to make their own statements, like Chicago NOW? You would have had a problem with this decision even if NARAL had reached out to state groups, because you are a supporter of Clinton.

You wrote that you felt NARAL betrayed you by endorsing a well qualified woman's opponent in the race. My sense is that there's a compounding factor here for you - that NARAL, a group formed to support womens' rights, endorsed the woman's opponent. Alegre, NARAL isn't a group advocating for women - it advocates a right that applies only to women. In this way, it is extremely different from the national organization for WOMEN, the WOMEN'S campaign forum, and the Women's political committee. Yes, these groups share goals, but should a pro choice organization support a candidate based on sex? If an anti-choice woman runs against a pro-choice man, should the woman get NARAL's endorsement?

Alegre, you went further in pushing the idea that Obama has been weak on choice at any point in his career. I know you support Hillary, but that doesn't mean that you can say such things, because they are FLAT OUT NOT TRUE. Remember Lorna Brett Howard, the former president of Chicago NOW, who endorsed Obama because of the very same claims you are making, and did it in January? Remember the quotes from Planned Parenthood, who coordinated strategy with Obama, and defended him against those same allegations you still push, months ago?

There are plenty of justified concerns to have about Barack Obama, but any weakness on choice is not among them. Supporting Clinton doesn't give you the right to selectively ignore that those "present" votes, (which have the same weight as no votes), were coordinated with Chicago pro-choice groups!

When you paint with such a broad brush, and pick facts in this way, you make it really, really hard for Obama supporters to not do the same. You don't help a productive conversation - when you introduce such nonsense that Obama was weak on choice, you stifle the dialog that we need so badly on real problems he has, like your diary on the way he's blamed his staff several times.

Who wrote that Obama's nomination means that McCain will enter the White House. In fact, you said that I could "bet my @ss" on it. That is an opinion that you can hold - but it is a polarized one. It is one that says: "A vote for Barack Obama is a vote for John McCain," and I'm darned certain of it. Do you really think that he stands no chance? I don't think so.

Alegre, this polarization is everywhere, and goes far beyond any conversation between us. It is the polarization that Karl Rove marketed so effectively in 2004 as to create a giant gap in the country - but one where Bush has 51% of the territory. The Rove comparison is not an accurate one, and I do not mean to imply that you are following his example in any way, but you are using the same concept: You are for Hillary, or you are for McCain!

I reject that. I reject any and all attempts to draw lines and declare an "us or them" approach. We are not a country of us and them. We are a country where there are people on all sorts of sides, and just as many in the middle. We're a country where I can sit down with two extremely pro-life friends, and have a long conversation without screaming and shouting. We're a country where the process is built for conflict AND a productive resolution.

This polarity of for women or against women, for Hillary or for McCain, for good or not for good, cannot continue. Please consider this a plea not to change your opinions, but rather the way that you express them. Words and phrasings matter - and "WTF"  isn't going to get a Democrat in the White House, though I recognize that you're angry, and that you have the right to express yourself as you choose.

Thank you for your time and dedication to your candidate. You are a model for the kind of positive diaries that help everyone out, and you are a "hero" to many bloggers who support Clinton. I hope you can use your hard-earned status to model a discussion that bridges gaps instead of creating them. That is what I seek to do at MyDD (though I'm certainly not perfect), and I hope that you see this as a critique of your methods instead of an attack on your beliefs.

With great sincerity and humility,
Falsehood

PS: If this dairy receives no recognition from Alegre or "major" Clinton supporters, I ask that Obama supporters refrain from baseless accusations of cowardice or anything of that sort. Thsi diary uses Alegre's name, but it doesn't require a response from her (though I would appreciate it.) No one is under any obligation to answer this - I'm not looking to persoanlly capitalize off of someone else's name.

References:
http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/election s/statements/obama.html

"Criticizing Obama on the basis of `present' votes indicates you don't have a great understanding of the process," said Thom Mannard, director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence.

Or you are willing to pretend you don't to score cheap political points.

There's dirt here all right. It's all over the hands of those pointing the finger.
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_col umnists_ezorn/2007/12/disparagement-o.ht ml


Pam Sutherland, president of Illinois Planned Parenthood Council, said Mr. Obama was one of the senators with a strong stand for abortion rights whom the organization approached about using the strategy. Ms. Sutherland said the Republicans were trying to force Democrats from conservative districts to register politically controversial no votes.

Ms. Sutherland said Mr. Obama had initially resisted the strategy because he wanted to vote against the anti-abortion measures.

"He said, `I'm opposed to this,'" she recalled.

But the organization argued that a present vote would be difficult for Republicans to use in campaign literature against Democrats from moderate and conservative districts who favored abortion rights.

Lisa Madigan, the Illinois attorney general who was in the Illinois Senate with Mr. Obama from 1998 through 2002, said she and Mr. Obama voted present on the anti-abortion bills.

"It's just plain wrong to imply that voting present reflected a lack of leadership," Ms. Madigan said. "In fact, it was the exact opposite."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/pol itics/20obama.html?_r=3&hp=&adxn nl=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=prin t&adxnnlx=1210871130-/EwkR1wRh0jR4LJ SmyReWg


Thank you so much for helping to make the 2006 EMILY's List Majority Council Conference such a great success. Our Majority Council members told me again and again how energized they were to hear directly from you and how much they appreciated your spending time with us. You truly inspired our members and reminded them why they support our work to elect dynamic pro-choice Democratic women - especially after hearing you speak about how you're fighting to make change happen. I appreciate your commitment to EMILY's List.
Letter From Ellen Malcolm To Barack Obama, 5/18/06

"I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton and an EMILY's List donor, but this line of attack is unacceptable. While I was the president of Chicago National Organization for Women, Senator Obama worked closely with us, could not have been more supportive of a woman's right to choose, and there was no bigger champion in Illinois on our issues. What's important is that the candidates do not cannibalize each other on issues we all agree about because we need to win in November."
-Lorna Brett, former president of Chicago NOW
More recent Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVuMYKs8i Js

"During his years in the state legislature, Barack Obama was a strong and consistent supporter of women's reproductive rights. He worked hand-in-hand with Planned Parenthood in developing and executing strategies to make sure that women had access to reproductive health care. I also want to thank him for standing up with us in the effort to open the Aurora clinic and for his introduction of legislation guaranteeing access to low-cost birth control. Planned Parenthood/Chicago Area has proudly endorsed Barack throughout his entire political career."
-Steve Trombley, CEO & President, Planned Parenthood/Chicago Action



Display:


Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (1.83 / 12)

Call out diaries are just plan wrong and against the policies.
If you have a complaint e-mail the AD or take it up in a diary post to her.
by J Rae on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:36:47 PM EST

Care to deal with the substance... (2.00 / 2)

...of the post?


by Lieber on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to deal with the substance... (2.00 / 2)

No, I would not care to put myself in the middle of the poster argument with another poster.


by J Rae on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to deal with the substance... (2.00 / 1)

I will and I am new and I don't know either the diarist or the target.  I did a control F search in this diary and when I put in Alito, I came up with no hits.

How could NARAL support the guy who snubbed the filibuster of Alito.  The same way Bush would never be removed from office, he should have been impeached.  That filibuster of Alito should have happened and it should have appeared everywhere on the news whether or not it would have survived cloture.  Obama walked away from it because he never really takes a stand.  Amazing how you can be for change but never change anything.


by allend on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to deal with the substance... (none / 0)

Those decisions are mostly made in regards to the court of public opinion. See here:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9 /30/102745/165/500/153069


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You already did (none / 0)

by filling in as the proxy schoolmarm. No sense in playing coy now.


by bookish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to deal with the substance... (none / 0)

Well, I think my diary is about more than a single diary - its about a general tone. I didn't make it public to embarrass Alegre, I write it publically because I felt it substantively addressed issues in a way a "normal" diary would.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to deal with the substance... (none / 0)

If you are looking to discuss substance than take the other posters name out of the title.

As long as it's there it's just a call out diary.


by J Rae on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to deal with the substance... (none / 0)

Is that a promise?  If he changes it to "Dear X" will you then debate the merits of his point?


by quixote27 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:03:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to deal with the substance... (2.00 / 1)

Done. I'd welcome any other thoughts.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Care to deal with the substance... (2.00 / 1)

You can still comment on the nature of Obama's pro-choice positions, the role of polarity, or anything you think I got wrong.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:47:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I finally got around to buying (2.00 / 2)

leaving kansas. Woooohoooo


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (2.00 / 3)

exactly.  you are breaking site rules here.


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

Did my changes suffice?


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:47:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (2.00 / 5)

I agree. I hate this kind of diary. Not recommended.

Furthermore, clearly this diarist doesn't realize that this dog won't hunt:

"...the organization argued that a present vote would be difficult for Republicans to use in campaign literature against Democrats from moderate and conservative districts who favored abortion rights."

Barack Obama was a Senator representing a Democratic bastion. He certainly wasn't threatened by voting his principles.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (2.00 / 3)

He wasn't threatened. Which is why he voted present. To give dems in purple districts cover.

Btw, lets apply that same test to HRC with regards to the AUMF.

Hillary Clinton was a Sen representing a Dem bastion. She wasn't threatened by her voting principles...yet she voted for the war.


Unable to rec or rate Still supporting Obama
by astoria gooner on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

bullshit (1.66 / 3)

his vote gave no one cover except himself and his desire for higher office.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bullshit (2.00 / 2)

I don't mean to let my facts interfere with your opinion, but if the claim is that his votes help downticket dems in purple and red areas, and then Travis Childers wins a Mississippi district that's been republican for a generation when the entire GOP strategy revolved around tying him to Obama (and the boogeyman Wright) and Childers wins...Isn't it pretty justified to say Obama's done well for dowticket dems?


by Djo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bullshit to you as well (2.00 / 1)

Hillary's gas tax is pandering for a higher office.

Hillary's lies about sniper fire were lies to justify her "experience"

Who's the sanctimonious one now?


by Regenman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bullshit (none / 0)

How woud that vote give him cover for higher office? It was part of a pro-choice strategy.

I'm confused on how you think this was a sign of weakness.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not Proven! (none / 0)

... some days I like my Senator! ;-)
(reference to ol' Arlen's vote on impeachement, and not terribly relevant exceptin' that it's also obscure parlimentary trickery)
His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

True, but the idea was to get a big block of legislators, to give the ones that were at risk cover.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (2.00 / 7)

When every piece of ahem writing she does gets recced up, she really does become more than the average user.  Like it or not, by her prevalence on this site, she is accountable for what she writes.

Personally, I cannot fathom why this person's diaries are so widely followed and recced.  Most of them are pretty lame.

Yes, I'll get flamed for this, but I guess I just don't understand her appeal.


by masterxi43 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:20:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (2.00 / 3)

It's astroturfing by the Hillaryis44 and Taylormarsh crowd.  The site moderators here have also become complicit by removing rec privileges from Obama supporters so Alegre and the other's diaries can more easily make the list.


by catalysis on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is BS (2.00 / 2)

The reason her diaries are rec'd is because of what she writes and how she writes.

I have never gone to H44 and I have only checked out TM's site maybe... 3 times.

So once again, I call Bullshit on your comment.

I really wonder if any of you O supporters realize what really happens at Dkos. The thing is, that you may not notice the abuse the admins do because the audience is much larger then here at MyDD. Plus you are on the same "side" as kos in who you support and who you attack.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:16:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is BS (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, Linfar was TOTALLY BUSTED today and last week.

you want links?


Unable to rec or rate

Read this: http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/1427 30/254

by GeorgeP922 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is BS (none / 0)

What did she do this time?


Unable to recommend or rate
NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:33:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She calls for people on HillIs44 (2.00 / 1)

to come over here and rec her diaries.  IndyDem99 does it as well.  Kind of sad.


by JJE on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You mean like this?: (1.00 / 1)

Messages requesting recs like the following go out pretty much each time one of the 'prominent' MYDD Rec listers put a diary up.

Guys in all the time I've been on the blog no one has EVER gone in and
> deleted sections of my diary or deleted my post. Not even at
> DailyKos. I included a brief reference to those 400 bloggers BO's
> supposedly hired and the bots bitched up a blue streak to Johnathan
> Singer - admin. at MyDD. So they warned me and then deleted the first
> chunk of my diary tonight.
>
> I just thought I'd mention this in case you're wondering why my diary
> looks like it starts in the middle. Do me a favor and go rec my diary
> up - get it onto the rec list ok? Thanks.
>
> --- In HillarysVoice@yahoogroups.com, "hillarysbloggers"
> <hillarysbloggers@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bots are swarming folks - I need help!
> > http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/2346 20/424
> > <http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/234620/424>
> >
> > Thanks! Alegre :)

If this comment somehow breaks site rules....feel free to hide it...no hard feelings.  ;)


by Kysen on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:24:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who cares (none / 0)

The same happens at Kos. The same happens at Kos for people to come here. The same happens all over the blogosphere.

wes Clark and John Edwards supporters did that all the time. There is nothing wrong with saying... "hey, there is a good XYZ candidate diary at blogX, please give it some help".

Obama people do it too.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Google "tu quoque" (none / 0)

so you can understand why your constant refrain of "Kos does it too!!" is extremely unpersuasive.


by JJE on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:21:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Google "tu quoque" (none / 0)

My "constant" refrain?

No... it is a reminder to all of the O supporters to look within and at Dkos before bashing MyDD and Jerome.

see?


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I should add (none / 0)

not just Jerome but also before bashing other diarist such as Alegre


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Google "tu quoque" (none / 0)

yes, it is a classic tu quoque.  Did you google it?  

If someone says "Person A is doing X, and X is bad."  Responding with "But B does X too!  What about B?" does absolutely nothing to rebut the proposition that X is bad.   That's why nobody is persuaded when you use Kos to deflect criticism of posters here.


by JJE on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Google "tu quoque" (none / 0)

You don't get it. I am not trying to persuade anyone.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of trying to call out MyDD, Jerome and some of the Hillary Clinton supporters.

I am not trying to say that some of these arguments are not valid. BUT as you point out these arguments fall on deaf ears and people are not persuaded because of the greater hypocrisy of Dkos, other places and other bloggers. (greater, because they are MUCH bigger)


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ok (none / 0)

but people shouldn't be gaming the rec list, either here or at Kos.  Can you agree on that?


by JJE on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:53:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hmmm (none / 0)

kind of.

But it will continue to happen. I have a feeling this diary got on the list because a call was put out to get it there.

There have been pro Obama diaries that have never made it to the the rec list but this diary that calls out a fellow blogger gets on the rec list with a huge amount of recs.

Kudos for getting it there but....


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

Nope. The only people who saw this diary did it because they clicked the link. I didn't alert anyone - however, some of the rec list diaries were fading, so that probably helped.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:53:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well, I used to think that (none / 0)

ages ago, when the kozzacks would do it.

but when she alleges that Obama would be stealing Indiana if he wins... well, that's not someone I would want on the rec list. It's called a loose cannon, and I wouldn't want to see that person up there every single day.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, I used to think that (none / 0)

It's not about the person. It's about the diaries.

Names are good for getting clicks, but they don't (or shouldn't) get recs.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 07:54:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is BS (none / 0)

This isn't dkos for the 1000th time...


I'm Ready For A Good Old GOP & John McCain Ass Kickin'!!!
by hootie4170 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No fucking DUH (none / 0)

Do you not get it for the 100th time?

Some of you O people come here and COMPLAIN away about a diary, diarist or the admins but you seem to be BLIND to what happens at the BIGGEST blog of the all. Dkos.

get it?

geeez.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No fucking DUH (none / 0)

I'm not a member at Dkos....you are.  And for someone who talks shit about it all the time, you seem to be over there quite a bit...


I'm Ready For A Good Old GOP & John McCain Ass Kickin'!!!
by hootie4170 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:54:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And you know (none / 0)

this how?

I have been on Dkos since 2003 or 04.. I don't really remember.

Now if you are not a "member" at dkos, then how do you know what I do at dkos?

Also... the amount that I use Dkos is about 5% of what it used to be simply because of what happened over there. I have the bruises and scars to prove it.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And you know (none / 0)

Ok. I don't know what you did at D Kos, but that still doesn't legitimize citing their actions to justify someone else's.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No <bleep> DUH (none / 0)

Ahhh, such nice manners here at MyDD.  Such understanding.  Such patience.

Let she/he who is without sin cast the first stone.  

That would work, except that many of the more vocal H supporters on this site consider themselves to be without sin - just like they consider their candidate to be without sin.

I seem to recall this somewhere:

* Post as many comments as you like, but users that post comments that do nothing but name-call, denigrate the site users, or make inflammatory remarks will either be warned, or outright banned.

* Do not troll rate (rating as 0) another user's comment unless it is a comment that is an attack on another user. Abusing this privilege will result in all your ratings being erased and/or getting a warning, or being banned.

But, then you've troll-rated non-attack comments of mine before, for no reason, and you haven't been banned from MyDD.

So, I guess all's fair...

If DKos does it, then many of the H supporters feel justified that MyDD does it.

I've been away from MyDD for months, since I was improperly banned.  I shouldn't have come back.  It's worse now.


by Sully Fick on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hmm (none / 0)

Now let me take your words and spin them.

"So, I guess all's fair...

If MyDD does it, then many of the O supporters feel justified that Dkos does it.

I've been away from Dkos for months, since I was improperly banned.  I shouldn't have come back.  It's worse now."

Do you get my point?


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, kevin22262!!! (1.33 / 3)

I have seen the light!  I see your point!!

Thank you for clearly pointing out to me what I have been missing all of this time.

You feel justified in improperly troll-rating users of MyDD because you were improperly troll-rated by people at Dkos.

And, you feel justified that I should have been improperly banned at MyDD because you were improperly banned at DKos.

Even though I did not troll-rate you at DKos or improperly ban you at Dkos, it is still appropriate for you (and the Admins) to do those things to me, because then justice is served in this surreal Intertube-world.

Thanks for clearing this up for me, kevin22262.  It makes so much more sense now.

I take it that I'm now permanently banished from MyDD forever, and should hang my head in shame, and never post here again?

Ok.  Such is life.  Tu quoque.

Longos imitaris, kevin22262.


by Sully Fick on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks (none / 0)

for proving my feelings about some of the O kids.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thanks (none / 0)

Thanks for proving my point about you troll-rating my posts improperly, for which you won't get warned or banned.

And, sorry to disprove your feelings.....I'm not one of the O kids.

I was, and am still, an Edwards adult.  And a woman.

Don't patronize me.


by Sully Fick on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well then (1.50 / 2)

don't act like an O kid. Or a child.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:23:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well then (1.50 / 2)

How exactly do you survive in the wild and wooly world of the unstable intertubes with a skin so thin?

Does sarcasm bite you so deeply?

Which part did you feel was acting like an "O kid" and which part was acting like "a child"?

Snark?  Quoting scripture?  Sarcasm?  Quoting user rules?  Publicly talking about your tendency to HR and TR without cause?  Quoting Latin?

Or is your fallback position just to call someone names?

Not only shouldn't I have come back here, I also shouldn't have bothered posting anything.

I'll let you have the last words, kevin22262.

Make them good ones.


by Sully Fick on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You continue (1.00 / 1)

to prove that you act like a child.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You continue (none / 0)

And you continue to engage. If she's so immature, don't giveher your attention.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

:0 (1.00 / 1)

Nullane res potuit crudelis flectere mentis consilium? Tibi nulla fuit clementia praesto, immite ut nostri vellet miserescere pectus?

- Gaius Valerius Catullus - LXIV

You're right, don't give her [me] your attention, if I'm so immature!

As to the human race. There are many pretty and winning things about the human race. It is perhaps the poorest of all the inventions of all the gods but it has never suspected it once. There is nothing prettier than its naive and complacent appreciation of itself. It comes out frankly and proclaims without bashfulness or any sign of a blush that it is the noblest work of God. It has had a billion opportunities to know better, but all signs fail with this ass. I could say harsh things about it but I cannot bring myself to do it - it is like hitting a child.

- Mark Twain, Autobiographical dictation


by Sully Fick on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:22:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh my (none / 0)

and this person continues to engage but in doing so also throws shit around.

whatever.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:37:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, kevin22262!!! (2.00 / 1)

I hate to bring this up, but a lot of the troll-rate abuse I have seen on this site comes from one side... Clinton supporters who do not like what they have read... no personal attacks... no inappropriate comments... just divergent opinions.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmm (2.00 / 1)

You can't HR sarcasm.  My God.


by The Distillery on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmm (none / 0)

Thank you for noticing the HR, and uprating.


by Sully Fick on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

directed (none / 0)

at me.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmm (none / 0)

Why do you lie??  You aren't banned from Dkos, you just wrote a diary yesterday and have commented for the last week...Instead of bringing your complaints to Dkos you come over here so you can be surrounded by your "buddies" and then you throw your insults...can't do it at Dkos can ya??


I'm Ready For A Good Old GOP & John McCain Ass Kickin'!!!
by hootie4170 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is BS (2.00 / 1)

Actually I've noticed it's pretty civil overthere with the exception of the occasional asshole, but if you can find a blog that doesn't have a few hanging around, let me know where that's at!

Kos has great issue and down ticket coverage, I think people forget that sometimes through all of the outlandish and inflammatory diaries that get posted over here to prove a point. I saw one that had two people rec it, most of the commenters said it was crappy, and yet still it was posted here because it fanned the flames of a blog war. Let's grow up a little!


by Djo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is BS (none / 0)

How long have you been at Dkos?

I sometimes wonder if some of you O supporters are blind to what goes on over at Dkos because most of the diaries support O or bash Clinton.

The numbers of users and posters at Dkos greatly outnumbers MyDD, so you will see more variety and maybe not notice a diary hanging around as long. This is a fact that seem to allude many of you.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is BS (none / 0)

Since long before this primary season. One of the reasons I started coming on this site was because it did get nasty over there for awhile. But it's really died down since then. If you find yourself being the target of attacks over there, it may be because of the tone of argument you are using. I haven't seen anyone bash another for a well-informed civil disagreement and if they do, there are others who are willing to step in defense.

Alot of people need to come off their high horses and admit the dialogue's gotten just as muddy on this site.


by Djo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I never said (none / 0)

it has not gotten bad here.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never said (none / 0)

sure, whatever you say :\


by Djo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:37:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Show me (none / 0)

then... ok?

whatever.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Show me (none / 0)

I really don't want to get in a pissing contest with a skunk. But I've been accused of following a cult of personality, drinking the "Koolaid", taking Obama pills, being "one of the creepy crawly things", and these are the comments that come from trying to put level headed facts into the arguments. And that is the most alarming thing about it.

Not to say I've never said something stupid on this blog, but when I do, there are usually people there to point that out. But when people respond to me with insults when I'm trying to point out facts, it reminds me alot of when people used to call me a terrorist for not supporting the Iraq war. Me and my stupid facts...


by Djo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 06:49:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Show me (none / 0)

First off... with a skunk?

Second... I have NEVER said those things to anyone!

hm.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:32:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Show me (none / 0)

Sorry, the skunk comment didn't come out right. In no way did I mean to put you in the lot with that dastardly Pepe le Pew.

And you may not have said those things. But those are just a few of my reasons that I think the dialogue in this site is just as bad as it ever was on Kos


by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:03:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Show me (none / 0)

What was your point in posting this?


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

huh? (none / 0)

Post what? My last comment?


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: huh? (none / 0)

Yep. Seemed like a fairly pointless comment to make; I wondered why you posted it.


by Falsehood on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (2.00 / 3)

What total bs. Alegre is known and recommended because she speaks for many of us who are party activists who support Hillary.  She has no special connection to the administrators and certainly not to the "crowd" you refernece. She made her bones at DKos and led us away  from that rotten orange when it became a Hillary-hate site.  

As for the diarist, he said it all up front.  He's a guy.  He doesn't get it. And he's taken a lot of space to ask women to explain it all to him or shut up.  I won't do either.

I'll just say when you attack Alegre or Hillary you attack me and millions of women.  It's personal.


by Tolstoy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (2.00 / 1)

I fail to see any attack.

But women can be wrong, you know.

Just like men.


by DeskHack on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:35:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't speak for "millions of women" (2.00 / 1)

and neither does anyone else.  Get over yourself.


by JJE on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

White women versus Black women eh? (1.50 / 2)

So in supporting women, you attack black women?  Fan fracking tastic...

From Slate.com

Most of all, I remembered reading Steinem's line that gender was the most restricting force in America today and laughing aloud, because I was so sure that what she meant to say was that gender is the most restricting force in America today--if you happen to be white and middle-class. Having spent some time that week at a Boston public school that is visibly and painfully segregated--segregated and restricted by race and economic status and parental educational attainment and maybe some other things but certainly not by gender


by Regenman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That last line ...(lol) (none / 0)

Wow. Are you serious? A little melodramatic don't you think.

Some of these posts...are just...plain bizarre.


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

I tried and got trolled.  I think sometimes when people say they don't understand, they really mean they don't agree, and that the call for an explanation only  means they want a chance to tr your dissenting opinion.  Have you noticed that the closer we get to a nom and the more Barack is seen as unstoppable, the meaner his supporters get?  it's weird.  It's tired.  


by anna shane on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

I'm sorry you feel that Obama supporters are being mean. I'm trying to work against that.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm a woman who is against propaganda (none / 0)

no matter what form it takes and who it comes from.  Allegre's diaries are completely without substance, over-emotional copy and paste jobs.  

I'm so sick of the second-wave feminist BS.  The philosphy being:  The only way to fit in with the status quo is to become the status quo.  So women are supposed to pick up what some consider to be the worst aspects of "maleness" in order to fit into a man's world.

So now all of us must suffer:
the hawkish(the commander and chief threshold)
war-mongering (I was for the Iraq war before I was against it, but I didn't know what I was voting for)
tough as nails(I will eat any Republican or fellow Democrat who stands in my way)  
never listen to reason (no economist agrees with my gas tax holiday, but I won't let that stand in my way)
a man could never understand the plight of women (Obama is 100% with women on all issues)

Some of the best feminists I know are men, and some of the worst feminists I know are women.  And I'm sure the majority of women between the ages of 20-30 could say the same thing. And it is a new generation after all.


by Tenafly Viper on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:50:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm a woman who is against propaganda (none / 0)

That's fairly far reaching. Care to back that up?


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:10:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

I disagree. There is some stuff I don't have in my memory, but that doesn't invalidate my point. Rather, its something to consider along with it.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

I've seen Linfar do this - not Alegre.

She just writes great diaries, and has name recognition for them. Which means more people read, more people recommend, etc, etc.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm a Clinton supporter who agrees with you (2.00 / 2)

I don't ever read her diaries because they are just nonstop propaganda.  I was wondering how each of them manages to get into the rec list even though each of us could probably predict the content of each of them.  One of the posters to this entry provides a plausible explanation.  


by lombard on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm a Clinton supporter who agrees with you (none / 0)

OMG. I agree with you, lombard.

...

I'm dumbstruck.

Thank you.

I yet see a glimmer of hope for reconciliation.


by bookish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:49:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks! (none / 0)

But, alas, my reasonableness is likely only temporary!


by lombard on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks! (none / 0)

But I'll carry it with me forevah. ;)


by bookish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:09:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm a Clinton supporter who agrees with you (none / 0)

If I could rec, I would, but this will have to suffice

:invisible 2-rate:


by bookish on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

I like her diaries, especially the positive ones. Part of leadership is rallying the troops - and Alegre is extremely good at that.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

Her positive diaries are fine.  However, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how they are so great as to make the rec list for every single one.

Her negative diaries are atrocious and usually completely uncalled for.  These diaries sit on the rec list far longer.  This is what bothers me about her and this site.


by masterxi43 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (none / 0)

Its a snowball effect - name recognition means that more write/read, and I do think her diaries are good.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 04:20:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pardon me if I butt in here... (2.00 / 10)

It would be my observation, having lurked here for some time and posted few comments, that whenever Alegre is called out in a professional manner with facts in her own diaries, she either refuses to answer or uses childish retorts that do nothing to foster creative debate and/or criticism.

So in an atmosphere where she consistently has recommended diaries, makes various claims that don't always hold up to a microscope and yet fails to respond or childishly responds to some of the more non-hostile criticisms, you expect either the Admin to do something or for her to reply, in a private email, that doesn't allow anyone else to have their say either in the public forum?

Please. This Open Letter diary was reasonable, well formed, thought-out, polite, had substance, and has an acceptable grievance.

If Alegra can't handle this kind of heat, maybe she should get out of the kitchen.


by phillybits on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I completely agree (2.00 / 4)

My favorite was her Indiana primary diary, which she updated by decrying all the "rude and crowing" Obama supporters.  When I read through the thread, the comment that stood out was hers, wherein she claimed that, if Obama won Indiana, it would be because the mayor of Gary committed vote fraud.


by deminva on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:10:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

patronage ain't illegal (2.00 / 1)

it's still skullduggery.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Indiana Accusation (2.00 / 1)

was outrageous.


by fladem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:29:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And if you recall.... (2.00 / 2)

she called all Obama supporters boys while referring to Hillary supporters as ladies.

Her ego is so huge she can't imagine another woman disagreeing with her.  Then she throws out the word "boys" in such a denigrating way, as if being a man was some sort of handicap.

As a woman, I found it unforgivably rude and disgusting.


by Tenafly Viper on Thu May 15, 2008 at 05:05:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And if you recall.... (none / 0)

I feel like its in the same sense that Southerners will say Yankee - it's not so much an insult as it is dividing lines - in the (women) club and not.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And if you recall.... (none / 0)

Yes, another word for them.


by deminva on Thu May 15, 2008 at 09:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

pardon me yourself (2.00 / 4)

just because someone posts a question or comment doesn't mean someone else has to answer them.  


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:16:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Just because..." (2.00 / 4)

The way you make it sound, Alegre is a little known, seldom heard voice in this corner of Blogatopia who makes infrequent comments, posts even less frequently than she comments, and otherwise doesn't hit on the controversial topics...

...like me...

However, we're not talking about one comment or one question, but a slew, a repetition, a continuation of talking points, bulletins, and attacks.

If I were consistently having diaries on the rec list and was an overpowering voice for one political site, I would feel it to be, in fact, my responsibility to answer as many questions as I can.

And especially when writing on controversial topics, if I were so sure of everything I put into a post and believed in whole-heartedly and 100%, if someone challenged me on the information, I would respond.

And not only would I respond, I would respond with class and facts, not childish remarks like:

Tell us again... what's your guy offering up this summer?

Yeah - didn't think so.


Furthermore, I don't think Alegre needs anyone speaking for her or in her defense. She's a big girl, made clear by her pull on this site and amongst her supporters.

If she wants to be an overpowering voice on this or any other site, then she leaves herself (fairly) open to criticism and if she chooses not to respond, it speaks even more volumes about her than anything else.

I'm sure if she turned around and wrote a post condemning a woman's right to choose, you and countless others would be first in line demanding answers.

What a shame it would be if she never got back to you...


by phillybits on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:32:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just because you don't understand (2.00 / 2)

Phillybits' point doesn't mean you're obliged to issue a non sequitur in response.


by JJE on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: pardon me yourself (2.00 / 1)

A point I made in the diary, but you're correct. I was wary of using her name given that I didn't want to capitalize on it, but I changed the name due to the comment controversy on/over it.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pardon me if I butt in here... (none / 0)

haha, she posted a diary about FL and MI and I posted a comment brought up my cousins in FL who chose to go to their mission in Haiti instead of voting for their candidate (O'bama) because they were told their votes didn't count. I asked if their votes should be count or if they should be penalized for (quoting her words from the diary) "following the rules the DNC sorted out".

She took the time to use my comment to lambest an Obama supporter saying "I didn't ask him" but failed to address the concern I was addressing with her.


by Djo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agree! (2.00 / 1)


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An Open Letter to Alegre (2.00 / 2)

My complaint wasn't about site policies - e-mailing the AD isn't really applicable here. I did think about a comment, but I felt a diary was merited.

"An Open Letter to Alegre," doesn't count as a call-out, I think. I think I'm in the grey area, but my post is about the nature of our communication on this site. I used Alegre as my example, but I felt I was engaging ISSUES enough to merit the post.

This isn't about Alegre, or me. However, Alegre is a leader, so in some ways, I was engaging all Hillary supporters. At this point, I think I've crossed into semi-spin, so I'll shut up.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This diary could have been titled (2.00 / 1)

"An open letter to Clinton Supporters" and accomplished the same thing.

And on substance I agree with much of it.

But I don't like seeing user names in diary titles.


by fladem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:32:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This diary could have been titled (2.00 / 1)

I disagree. A majority of the clinton supporters on this site are very civil and open to intelligent discourse. They are willing to listen to facts, base opinions on those facts and reanalyze their opinions based on facts and new information as it comes out.

I think this diary was not intended just for Alegre, but she is one of the most vocal of a faction of Clinton supporters who selectively choose their facts, often times failing to support their facts (unless an unnamed pollster on Hill44 is "verifying your facts") and, while refusing to participate in the kind of civil two way dialogue that blogs are supposed to be about often times get dragged into mudslinging contests against other dems. Those are the members this is addressed to. Her name gets their attention.


by Djo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This diary could have been titled (none / 0)

I got rid of it, thanks to comments like this one.


by Falsehood on Thu May 15, 2008 at 08:10:19 PM EST
[