Its Not a Question of IF, Its only a question of HOW MANY

" Its Not a Question of IF, its only a question of
HOW MANY Democrats will cross party lines or Stay at home on election day. Its not a question of how many whites & Latino democrats would not support the nominee, its only a question of by how much. It would be similar to the Reagan democrats two decades ago. The only difference today is the large Latino votes & Senior citizen voters are part of the 2008 block"

This is the best quote I've seen jointly given by democrat Henry Cisneros & GOP operative Al Castellanos on this issue.

All pollster agree on the findings. Polls in state after state show anwyhere from 25% to as high as almost 50% in states like Kentucky & West Virginia.

Democrats who would either vote for McCain in November or stay at home on election day.

Obama operatives can only work to try & minimize the percentages.

But even if numbers go at the low end of 25%, it would still be result in a devastating defeat for Obama in November.

Obama cannot afford to get Only 30%-35% of white voters. Obama cannot afford to get Only 55% of Latino voters.

Despite the Worst Republican Branding since Watergate, combined with a powerful media bias, we have a democratic nominee who would at best, give millions of democrats so much uncertainty until election night.

While we will increase our congressional house seats in November due in large part to the serious brand damage of the GOP, we will need lots of sleeping pills, lots of luck, and lots of divine intervention if we are too see a President Obama.

Its Kerry all over again. Obama has Absolutely No Room for error in the electoral map in November. There is No Wiggle room. Nothing.

We may all witness a relatively close popular vote race but a landslide electoral map defeat in November.

Not only possible, but extremely possible.

What a country. Only in america can you pick a weaker candidate for President.



Display:


Yawn (2.00 / 1)

I give it 2/10


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:33:18 AM EST

Re: Yawn (1.50 / 2)

I give it less than that. No "Obambi" or "kool aide" references anywhere. 1/10, at the most.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yawn (1.75 / 12)

"Its not a question of HOW MANY whites & Latino democrats would not support the nominee, its only a question of by HOW MUCH." [emphais mine]

Um.....don't "how many" and "how much" basically mean the same thing?

This troller couldn't even get his doomsday scary sentences to make any sense.

For that reason, I'm gonna have to disagree with you, obamavmccain - I give it a pathetic 1/10.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:48:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yawn (1.60 / 5)

TR due to personal attack.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:12:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yawn (2.00 / 1)

Oh nozzz1!!11!!!

I'm gonna go cry now.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:24:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yawn (1.40 / 5)

And uprated due to not actually being a personal attack.


by PantherDem on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:26:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yawn (2.00 / 3)

This troller couldn't even get his doomsday scary sentences to make any sense.

and mydd rules:

* Users who are bashing or attacking any other user on the site, including authors of diaries and frontpage postings, will be banned. Candidates and politicians are fair game (but that doesn't mean you can use inflammatory language against candidates).

* Post as many comments as you like, but users that post comments that do nothing but name-call, denigrate the site users, or make inflammatory remarks will either be warned, or outright banned.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:42:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yawn (1.20 / 5)

As I said: Not a personal attack.


by PantherDem on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:54:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yawn (1.50 / 4)

Hide-rated for encouraging rules abuse.


Lifelong Democrat, civil rights advocate, former volunteer for Dem candidates. Now Independent.
by BPK80 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 06:10:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yawn (none / 0)

Wow, so many little sheriffs running around with their chests puffed out. It's cute.


by PantherDem on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he will not carry the latino votes (2.00 / 1)

look back to the votes in Texas, Nevada and California - he did very poorly with the latinos -there is a general distrust between latinos  and blacks because of their economic situation. I do not see them going to him in great numbers so between the "old democratic party, women and latinos he doesn't really have a good chance at winning the general.


by suzieg on Sun May 25, 2008 at 04:26:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he will not carry the latino votes (none / 0)

That's just wrong.
Did it ever occur to anyone that the Latino community just really likes Clinton? Just because they prefer her over Obama doesn't mean that they won't vote for him.
Yes, it is a demographic that needs some attention from the campaign, as well as white working-class Appalachian folks and non-college educated women over fifty. But that doesn't mean it's a lost cause.
Six months ago, Obama had about 30% of EVERY demographic. But people CAN change their minds.
That's why we have a little thing called a campaign.
by EvilAsh on Sun May 25, 2008 at 04:55:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he will not carry the latino votes (none / 0)

latest polling in CA shows Obama leading with latinos.


by interestedbystander on Sun May 25, 2008 at 05:06:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 2)

Polling is showing the deadenders are coming around; and I'd hate to pick a nominee based off of electoral blackmail. What an inspiring choice, eh?

Worst case scenario, I'd say it's Clinton v Dole all over again, with Barr taking the Perot spot. Old, semi-respectable man getting circles run around him by charisma. And don't forget, Bill Clinton lost "the white vote" substantially in 1996. He lost the ever-praised "white male vote" by double-digits in both 1992 and 1996. Still, he won.

However, it seems that Obama is polling so well with Hispanic groups he's got Colorado and New Mexico easily in play, and does better in California than Clinton.

I'm sorry- did I bust your talking points wide open? My bad.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:33:20 AM EST

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 3)

Polling is showing the " deadenders " are coming around;

- Such humility lol.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:44:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 2)

If you have a better word to describe people who insist on denying reality, please let us hear it.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:49:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 1)

how about supporters who are still excited about their candidate?

this cannot be your first primary, can it?


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 1)

"how about supporters who are still excited about their candidate?"

LOL......"still excited about their candidate"....or delusional and outright preaching every single day on this blog and others that she is still going to win, and call those that refer to Obama as the presumptive nominee "divisive" and "hateful" for simply stating fact????

One of us is in their first primary all right - but it's not me.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:00:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 1)

this isn't my first primary.  That is why I know better to state who will be the nominee.

have you ever seen a primary this close and split down the middle for vote?

nope.  I bet you haven't and neither have I.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:05:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How is it "split down the middle"; (2.00 / 1)

Obama needs 20% of remaining delegates to win. Hillary needs 80%.

That's a pretty big difference.


by bobdoleisevil on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:15:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How is it "split down the middle"; (2.00 / 1)

votes are split down the middle.  And percentages don't mean that much if there is that much divide.

That is what SD's are for.  This might be the last time SD's are used in a primary - well, not sure of that, as the SD's have a lot of political clout - but if they are gone after this year, I also hope caucuses are gone as well.  

Hillary aside, people have in the past fought their way thru a primary to the convention with much less chances.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Only when nobody had enough delegates to (2.00 / 1)

be nominated on the first ballot.

Obama's guaranteed to have enough.


by bobdoleisevil on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:24:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 1)

No, I've never seen a primary this close.

But, that dosen't really mean jack shit when you consider that there is a 200-delegate difference between the two, now does it?

And at this point, it's not a question of "knowing better" than to state Obama will be the nominee - it's simply reality.

I'm sick and tired of having to perform the writer's equivalent of tip-toeing on egg shells so as to not happen to offend the fragile sensibilities of the few remaining deadenders. If somone can't deal with me referring to Obama as the presumptive nominee....well, then tough shit.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:29:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (none / 0)

"Obamabots" :)


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:03:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (none / 0)

yep.  I can feel my arteries harden when I read those types of comments.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:50:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 1)

How would you like me to refer to them, linc? Honestly, I didn't mention affiliation to a candidate of any sort. People who before said they wouldn't vote for Obama are coming around; period.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 1)

People who before said they wouldn't vote for Obama are coming around; period.

- now thats better


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:02:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (none / 0)

After the lunacy of the past two days I am more determined not to vote for Obama.  That would be like justifying the media's flat out assault on Hillary.


by handsomegent on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:23:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (2.00 / 1)

Ahh, trolls make me smile.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (none / 0)

That's some twisted logic you got there, pal.


by interestedbystander on Sun May 25, 2008 at 05:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, you missed the boat on this one (none / 0)

It may sound better, but it's only wishful thinking.  The polls last week in Kentucky were even worse for Obama than the polls in WV.  I'm not sure why this poster believes folks are "coming around," but it isn't based on any facts, as far as I've seen.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:08:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He does better than Clinton because the media (none / 0)

basically keeps mentioning he's won! she's completely ignored unless it's something negative. Take a look at the women votes which are the biggest, loyal and reliable bloc of voters and how they feel about this primary:

I read this on a blog which I forgot to write which one nevertheless it will give you an idea of the problem he faces. Women never forget and seldom forgive just ask any of your scorned girlfriends and mothers better yet, ask your father how long your mother' memory last:

Obama's Wealthy and Privileged Women Supporters: More Than Just a Generation Gap! posted by Tony Smith  
05.23.2008 - 7:34 pm  
Only the Democrats would decide to run two attractive presidential candidates from the party's strongest demographic groups in the same year. But things became worse when the party allowed the media to butcher one of the candidates with sexist, racially accusatory, and otherwise hateful rhetoric that inflamed her base of support. Although a line between leading and defending a party and meddling a campaign must exist, if the threat originates outside of the field of candidates, the party should take a role in neutralizing it. The party intervened numerous times, claiming that Clinton campaigned too aggressively against Obama, but it said nothing about the awful treatment of Clinton from the media. This is unacceptable. It means that my party will tolerate sexism either because they hate the individual, or because sexism makes them hate the individual. Either way, that's inappropriate, and it violates fundamental principles that define my own personal ideology and that shape the party's political platform - at least rhetorically.

I do not wish to unify with racist and sexist "liberals." At least the Republicans don't pretend to be egalitarian. Maybe this is why the Democrats have been so ineffective; they don't really support the views they espouse. We need a party that speaks and acts consistently. We can only accomplish this by reforming the mess we already have or by forming a new party, not by compromising fundamental values and electing Obama above all. If we compromise, the party would lack any incentive to change.

Also, I cannot vote with a "generation" that believes its values supercede all others, especially when its members are unpredictable and unappreciative. Before you accuse me of "hating" the youth, I felt the same way about Generation X - which positioned itself in the same elitist "no-it-all" way. In my black southern background, older people are revered for their knowledge and experience. Certainly, I can question people older than I am, but I have learned that their experiences, especially in combating subordination, are meaningful. Whenever I hear young women say that they just don't get "feminists," I want to tell them to drop out of school, ask for 1/2 the average male salary, lay back and "enjoy" rape because they dressed seductively, and forego the right to vote. These young women could understand and appreciate older feminsts, but they do not respect history and are privileged by the activism of older women. Clinton's staunchest women supporters, by contrast, are women, single mothers, and older. Perhaps because they lack economic privilege, they appreciate and are inspired by the idea of a "tough" woman standing up for them. The Huffingtonpost and Daily-Kos "new feminist" crowd cannot relate to this, so they criticize Clinton's female supporters for engaging in "identity politics" (or for being racist). Here's another perspective: These so-called "postmodern" or "post-identity" women do not relate to Clinton's base because of their own social and economic privilege. Compare their position with blacks who overwhelmingly support Obama. Blacks are socially vulnerable, in terms of both race and class. They, like Clinton's socially vulnerable white women supporters have dug in their heels with respect to Obama. Some blacks have threatened to riot or to vote for McCain if Clinton wins. Clearly, Obama gives them hope, pride and a sense of justice, and the "new" feminists have not challenged this whatsoever. Clinton similarly inspires poor and older women. When upper-class women denounce poor and older women's gender loyalty as unwise, they contradict the very message upon which Obama's campaign rests: the importance of hope and inspiration. They also hypocritically chastise white women, but not blacks for engaging in identity politics. We must hold them accountable for their hypocrisy and arrogance.

Finally, a word on Roe -- the ultimate red alert. An abundance of literature criticizes the feminist movement for centralizing Roe as a social movement objective. Mainstream feminists fail to recognize the ways in which economic barriers, not Court rulings, burden women's reproductive autonomy. The Supreme Court has watered down Roe almost to the point of nonexistence. The Court does not even apply the rigorous Roe doctrine anymore; instead, it only looks to see whether a law places an "undue burden" in the path of a woman seeking to abort a nonviable fetus. Since the Court developed this malleable standard in 1992 (Planned Parenthood v. Casey), it has upheld several laws that had previously failed Roe's "strict scrutiny" test. Now states can require women to read literature designed to deter them from seeking abortions. They can require "24-hour waiting periods," which means that patients have to schedule two doctor's appointments, thus exacerbating the cost of the procedure. Even under Roe, the Court had long held that the federal government and states could exclude abortion-related services from coverage under government-sponsored health plans. As a result, abortion is cost-prohibitive for many poor women -- unless they receive assistance from organizations like Planned Parenthood. Most recently, the Court, for the first time, upheld an antiabortion law that lacks a health exception. This federal statute bans partial-birth abortion, which usually takes place in the third trimester. Although heavily maligned by Obama's so-called "progressive" supporters, Bill Clinton vetoed partial-birth legislation two times. As Justice Ginsburg notes in her dissent, poor women, who often lack money to seek an abortion earlier, disproportionately utilize this procedure. Because the public strongly favors this legislation, do not expect the Supreme Court to reverse course, even under an Obama administration. The Supreme Court follows, rather than dictates, public opinion.

Obama has not stated that he would try to secure federal subsidies for abortion services or to do anything specific to enhance the reproductive choices of poor women. Had he articulated such policies, this would mark a significant change in the abortion debate. Absent such progressive measures, abortion will remain freely open to wealthier women and fairly available to middle-class and poor women - the exact same situation as today. Only policies that recognize the economic constraints on reproduction can disrupt the status quo. Because Obama has not proposed such measures, the Roe argument is merely a scare tactic


by suzieg on Sun May 25, 2008 at 04:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He does better than Clinton because the media (none / 0)

I love how it states 'the party allows the media to' etc.
As if the DNC has any control over what the media does or doesn't do.
And this line of reasoning doesn't really sway me, at least in regards to Clinton. She ran on being the toughest, able to take anything anyone can throw at her and come out on top. You can't make that claim and then call 'sexism'. Like Bill Clinton said, presidential politics is a tough game. If you can't handle it, you should get off the field.

That being said, the media has royally screwed the pooch on this election. The stupid fashion-show crap about Hillary, AND the stupid, GQ model, is he black enough, bowling-score crap about Obama.

You'd think THIS year, there'd be plenty of substantive things to talk about with these candidates. Unfortunately for the MSM, that just requires a little too much work.


by EvilAsh on Sun May 25, 2008 at 05:04:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (1.80 / 5)

It is something to think about.  Everytime I start to feel luke-warm towards Obama, his supporters come on to turn me off.

I know, I know, I shouldn't let the supporters get to me, but they do.  All of the hyperbole and Hillary-hate just hardens my heart even more

and I have voted for candidates who were a hell of a lot weaker.  I just feel like I've been thru a grinder this primary season - just for supporting Hillary.

November is a long way away.  Unity has to happen, because whoever is the final nominee, both sides need each other to win.  


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:33:41 AM EST

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

An honest question, of course- how d'you think we feel when we see Hillaryis44.org, NoQuarter, and Taylor Marsh? On Taylor Marsh, a Clinton supporter insinuated my daughter deserved to be raped since I supported Obama. I've never seen anything that horrible since, but should I attribute that to Senator Clinton if she's the nominee, when I'm considering voting for her or not?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:35:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

And how many fundies will stay home in November because McCain isn't one of them and has just denounced two of their own?

There's always issues along the fringes.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:36:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 2)

what I am worried about is some more homophobic crap or God crap (sorry, I am agnostic) on the ballots this November.

that makes the fundies come out strong.  Kerry would have beat Bush to the ground, but there were key states that had that shit on their nov. ballots.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:41:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

I want to hear you answer ragekage's question to you, please.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:52:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

I already did give him an answer.  Perhaps you should read the thread?


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:53:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (1.50 / 2)

my bad, but fwiw, your answer sucked hardcore


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (1.66 / 3)

what is your major malfunction?

I am not going to tell rage, whom I disagree with a lot, but still respect, what he should do.  He is an adult and can make that decision for himself.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

That had absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. Try again.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:23:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (1.75 / 4)

I don't even know what you are talking about now.  I answered him honestly.  You think an honest answer sucks hardcore, then I will say you do have a major malfunction.

rage was content with my answer and I don't have to answer to someone who is obviously trolling for a fight over nothing.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:26:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (1.50 / 2)

nice, troll rate me for being honest.

lol


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (1.25 / 4)

Troll rated you for being a troll and using insults. Tell yourself whatever you want.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:45:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (1.00 / 1)

I used insults?  Really?  When, pray tell?


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:46:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

Nah, don't say sorry, I hate the god crap, too. No place in politics, none at all.

BTW, try not to base your decision of whether to support Obama on his supporters. He's got some real assholes supporting him, but so does Hillary. And they both have a lot of excellent supporters, too.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:04:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 2)

you know what rage?  I don't go to those sites.  I don't go to dailykos unless there is a link from mydd to it.  

I am referring to those on this site.    


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:39:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

I know, I'm just pointing out it goes both ways; I don't think you doubt that for an instance, I just wanted to make sure the point stood.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:45:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

I know it exists, because people have posted it here.  I think it is horrific as well.  


by colebiancardi on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:48:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 2)

can you provide a link for that--that someone insinuated that your daughter should be raped?  You've been asked for this before but haven't posted a link.  

And yes, I think you should probably consider not voting for HRC if she is the nominee and her supporters have turned you off.  Supporters are a reflection of how a politician will govern when in office.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:41:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

They didn't insinuate it, they damn near demanded it. The invective and hatred there, and the other sites I mentioned, is epic- take a visit sometime. Alas, at sricki's request last night I ventured back onto the site in an attempt to track it down, which is hard because my response to that suggestion led to my immediate ban from that site, and their comments system isn't as easy to navigate as the one here. I will keep looking, but the point I'm going to make is there's no way I equate a few assholes I meet on the internet to Senator Clinton. That's idiotic. Hence, that aside, I'd most likely still vote for her if she were to become the nominee.

Supporters are a reflection of how a politician will govern when in office.

Then I haven't a clue why anyone supports Clinton, after what I've seen on those sites. What? Those are a far radical minority, not representative of real, honest and reasonable Clinton supporters, like the ones I've met around here? You don't say.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

For you and the other responder below--candidates draw supporters who are similar to themselves.  This is just psyc 101.  That's not to say there aren't also extremes out there that aren't representative of the candidate, but not surprisingly, I see the same kinds of arguments here (and on dKos) made by Obama supporters as I see made by the campaign and its close surrogates.  They may be a little nastier here, but it's the same reasoning, same arguments, same underlying worldview. And that troubles me.  I started this cycle supporting Edwards and believed neither Clinton nor Obama were good choices.  But Clinton supporters in general have struck me as being a lot more rational than Obama supporters in general over time.  I'm not going to go into detail after detail, and, I'm convinced you and others wouldn't listen anyway.  Instead, I'd just get ridiculed and called names, which I frankly don't have time for.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:31:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

Uh huh. No problem, whatever floats your particular boat, I suppose. I'll have to point out, though, it's a fun boat to be on! I'm gonna say you agree with this guy:


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

I don't understand your point, but I think my last sentence or two applies here.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:58:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

How are supporters a reflection of how a candidate will govern?  Last time I checked, the candidate makes the decisions regardless of what his supporters say on internet blogs.  

This has been a close primary and people on both sides have said terrible things.  But they are just random people from the internet and any of us who engage in conversation on these blogs has to be prepared to be amazed at the sense of power some people get under the cloak of anonymity.


by Xris on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:06:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0)

I am more than frustrated with the "my candidate is holier-than-thou" types, both Clinton and Obama supporters. People have lost all objectivity! At some point, try stepping outside of your candidate's group think and honestly analyze what has happened. For some Clinton and Obama supporters everything the other candidate does is an unfair attack against your candidate.

I feel like I'm in the 3rd grade. Your supporters are mean. No, your supporters are mean. Well, your supporters are meaner. But your candidate is sexist. No your candidate is racist...

I am amazed at the mental gymnastics that some individuals must go through on this site to be so divorced from reality.


by batgirl71 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 02:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huh? (none / 0)

Well said!!


by Sandeep on Sun May 25, 2008 at 03:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

So I should judge Clinton by the woman in West Virginia who said "I won't vote for no ni**er muslim 'cause he'd enslave the white race. Clinton's my girl."?

Umm . . . no. Clinton is no more responsible for her words than Obama is responsible for mine or anyone else running around the blogs.


by EvilAsh on Sun May 25, 2008 at 05:11:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

Um, that's a biiiiig assumption, there.

Seriously, I don't even know if that's terribly logical.  I mean, sure, I often joked I hated the Dave Matthews Band and Phish due to their respective supporters, but I wasn't serious!  

No, I'm sorry, but with groups at least as big as 16 million apiece, you're going to have tards.  The internet attracts and magnifies them.

If you want to dislike Obama, be my guest.  But don't blame the idiots on the tubes.  I don't hold Senator Clinton's worst intertards against her.  No reason to.  They aren't really her fault, they're just more accessible to me than she is.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 09:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

What exactly did the Clinton supporter say and in what context?


by handsomegent on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 3)

amen.  I wasn't a fan of either of these two candidates, but the Obama supporters first at Kos and now here have pushed me far away from him.  The smugness, sarcasm, and ludicrous (even childish) belief that Obama represents some new politics--used as an attack on Clinton--have turned me completely off.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:38:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

and that's some really intelligent shit on which to base your vote too.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

I expect I'll be voting for Obama, but I'm going to have a hard time doing it.  Frankly, I don't think he'll be an effective president at all, and I don't expect he'll be elected anyway.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:19:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

They're mostly sarcastic b/c sometimes the bullshit Clinton and her supporters try to peddle (like that she's ahead in the popular vote, for example) around here is handled with sarcasm b/c people haveto laugh probably just to restrain themselves form being more aggressive.


by Deano963 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:55:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 2)

I hate to tell you this, but she in fact has more votes than Obama.  There is no disputing that if you keep up with reality.

And see, you're doing EXACTLY what I'm talking about.  You're suggesting that your bad behavior is due to Clinton supporters.  Please, grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.  You choose whether to behave poorly or not.  No one makes you.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:20:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

She only has more votes than Obama if you cherry pick the numbers and ignore four states Obama won. There's no disputing that if you keep up with reality.

Except you're also engaging in the sort of behavior you just decried, right? A different shade of the same color. But self-righteousness is a powerful thing, I realize.

Oops, sorry- it's as if Senator Obama himself came down here to badmouth you on an anonymous, second-rate internet blog.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:41:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 3)

no, you are wrong--look at RCP.  You can include every state Obama has won and she leads if you count the votes she received in Michigan.  That's hardly "cherry-picking."  Now, we can argue about the legitimacy of MI, but (1) no one made Obama remove his name from the ballot--he did that as a ploy to help him in Iowa (which it did).  Now it has bitten him in the ass, and you know what, he should just deal with it (as obama supporters are so wont to tell Clinton supporters these days).  (2) although it is semantic, those votes that were cast for Clinton were, in fact, cast for her.  So, she has more votes than him if you simply count all votes that have been cast for particular candidates.  That is reality, and there simply is no denying it.  Now, if I were making the claim (or others were) that she was ahead, and I had to discount states to make that claim, then you would right.  But that's not the case, and you are not.

Actually, I'm NOT engaging in the same kind of behavior I'm decrying, and I challenge you to find any instance in which I have behaved that way--what are you even talking about?  I'm not namecalling.  I'm not being sarcastic (as you are in half of your posts).  About the worst thing I have EVER done on a blog is to call a person an asshole when s/he was being one and to point out when a poster seems to be lying in order to bolster their points.  Pointing out when someone is being a jerk is not the same as being gratuitously sarcastic, demeaning, and nasty.
 


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:53:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

Let's dissect this, shall we?

Looking at RCP, Obama's ahead in four of these metrics. The two Clinton is ahead in is counting both Michigan and Florida in full, ignoring four caucus states, and by much less in the version counting caucus states.

Of course, this is ignoring it's counting zero votes for Obama in Michigan. I see you have no problem with that; you're espousing the "Hey, he took his name off the ballot, it's his problem" line. Very interesting, especially when you make the notation about how he did it to play himself up in Iowa; which, I believe, Senator Clinton would be just as guilty of, given the pledge she signed and the statements she and her campaign made prior to when it became politically expedient for her to change course.

Perhaps this is the reason the rest of the Presidential candidates this year have not endorsed Senator Clinton, and why superdelegates are streaming in her direction. This is semantics and politicking on a level of intellectual dishonesty I've never witnessed before in my life. Luckily, however, the superdelegates are smarter than that, as are the majority of the electorate. There's no need for me to go through the wide variety of reasons and counterarguments to the silly claims you're making, since I doubt it'd do any good.

And I'm sorry if my sarcasm bites at you the wrong way; tough. This is real life, I don't feel the need to use kid gloves. We're all adults, aren't we? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, and maybe back into the real world. While you're busy writing GBCW rants on how mean Obama supporters are, and you'll never support Obama because of it, we're already busy trying to get progressive Democrats elected at every level this fall. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way, but don't waste my time with this garbage.

If you had responded a bit more cogently to that post, I might've marked you for a world-class troll yourself, but I see you don't have it in you. Just as well.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 03:00:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

Now you're just being an asshole, and yes, I'm calling you what you are.  You've succeeded in bringing out the worst in me, and we've ultimately accomplished nothing here in the way of getting any Democrats closer to office.

The blogosphere is not "real life" as you say, and I really question whether we're all "adults," including you, given the way you choose to make your case, which is a piss-poor one by the standards of logic.  One part poor reasoning to four parts ad hominem.  In real life, you'd lose not only the argument, but also quite likely your teeth, talking the way you do.

In contrast to what's occurring here, in "real life" "adults" carry on conversations in which legitimate arguments are used in the absence of name-calling.

If, in fact, "this is semantics and politicking on a level of intellectual dishonesty I've never witnessed before in my life," that gives me even more evidence that you are not an adult, because this is hardly intellectually dishonest, and even if it were, it hardly would rise to the level any adult would have witnessed over the course of one's life.

You want to know something intellectually dishonest?  How about your statement: "And I'm sorry if my sarcasm bites at you the wrong way; tough."  You don't apologize when you don't mean it, and this sentence flat-out shows you don't mean it.  

Or, better yet, how about the fact that you seem to live in every state under the sun?  you've been repeatedly asked by posters to clarify exactly what state you live in, because in almost every diary, you make a different claim.  For the life of me, I don't know whether you live in NC, VA, TX, MI, to name a few.  Now, to be honest, I don't care where you live, but to me, this is about as dishonest as Hillary's "Michigan won't count; now I want Michigan to count" position.  Which, by the way, I always thought MI should count and thought HRC made a mistake to go along with the DNC.  And, whether it is intellectually dishonest or not does not address the fact that, if you count all votes that have been cast for candidates, she is ahead.  Again, try reading before you go shooting off your mouth.

It's pretty clear that you aren't half as intellectually sophisticated as you think you are, so perhaps you should learn a little humility rather than being trigger happy with your sarcasm and name-calling.  You might fare a little better in accomplishing your goal of getting progressives elected that way.

And, that was my initial point--Obama supporters in the blogosphere (at least) are shooting themselves in the foot in their efforts to get their candidate nominated and into the White House.  You don't spend the entire primary season bashing the opponents' supporters and then expect everyone to fall in line for the general.  Again, though, if you were a true adult, you'd know this.    

Now, I'm hardly writing GBCW posts, I never said I wouldn't vote for Obama, and I can more than "handle the heat."  This is trivial bs compared to what I've been through in "real life."  But, speaking of real life, I have real intellectual work to do rather than waste my time talking to a brick wall whose real goal seems not to be to get anyone elected, but rather just to get his rocks off by insulting and disagreeing with people.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 04:02:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

This argument is so unconvincing that superdelegates have given it as their reason for coming out in support of Obama, and in several instances, defecting from Clinton.  So carry on believing this - but nobody outside the Clinton team believes it, and some inside the Clinton team have confessed they don't either.


by interestedbystander on Sun May 25, 2008 at 05:21:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

which argument--the popular vote argument?  I'm actually on the fence myself about it, but there's no denying the merits of the statement that she's ahead in the vote count.  It's not like that statement is contrived, and it looks more and more like she will be even "legtimately" ahead at the end.  So, it is something the supers will consider, even if a few don't.  I guarantee you they will go running to Clinton if another Wright-like issue comes up.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:19:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

Uh huh.

As the other poster noted, who're you trying to convince- people who actually matter, or yourself?

If you actually paid any attention to the things I posted, taken a look at my diary history, spent time getting to know the people around you in this forum, as I have, perhaps you wouldn't have to wonder aloud where I'm from, who I am, what my motivation is, et cetera. Hell, how much do you know about the people on your side? Where's sricki from? What did Rummahazzit do for a career? Where does VAAlex think about Mark Warner? Can you answer any of those questions? I doubt it; and given your attitude, I certainly don't think you could answer any about Obama supporters. You just keeps digging yourself deeper into a hole- which doesn't reflect on Senator Clinton at all, of course. Right?

If it makes you feel better to rail on about how Senator Clinton's winning the popular vote, place hands on ears, yell at top of lungs "SENATOR CLINTON IS AHEAD BY VOTES CAST, PERIOD, THE END!", by all means, go right ahead. But keep in mind the only one being convinced by your argument is... you.

Toodles.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 10:19:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

I don't have a side.  If you have been reading, you'd know that.  I support neither of these two candidates, but I've spent most of this primary season defending Clinton against ridiculous, bs arguments.  I'm not trying to convince myself of anything, but it strikes me that folks on Obama's side are the nastiest and most delusional.  If they weren't, they might discuss the merits of various positions rather than simply attacking posters who support Clinton.

As for where you live, my point wasn't about where you, in fact, live.  It's that you seem to make up your biography to suit your argument.  Here's an example:  several weeks ago, you claimed to live in a town in Virginia that recently experienced a shooting (I think that's what it was).  But, a couple of days prior to that--during the NC/IN primary week, you claimed you live in North Carolina.  Now, I went to graduate school in North Carolina (at Duke), and I can't think of a single Virginia town that is in NC, so something is amiss.  The point is, again, I don't care where you or anyone else here lives.  But I find it just as dishonest to claim multiple states as 'home' as it is for Clinton to change her mind about whether she thinks MI should count.  


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:36:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

Nice try. I live in Roanoke, Virginia, and went canvassing in North Carolina. Never said I lived there. And in my lifetime and career I've lived many places, in the Navy and out. But, heck, I don't care if you have any side at all, unless it's as a troll on the Republican side. The point I'm making is it's about community, and if you bothered to do any of that, you wouldn't have to denigrate everyone down into stereotypes which you can gleefully pass off on the candidates.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun May 25, 2008 at 03:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

I'm not the one who denigrates people on this site.  That's a role you've taken on against Clinton supporters for as long as I've been on this blog.  So can the self-righteousness.

Indeed, if I had time and cared to go on with this, I'd pull your comment where you said you were from North Carolina.  But, I'll simply concede the point and assume I misread.


by slynch on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:15:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

if you count the votes she received in Michigan.  That's hardly "cherry-picking."

No, it's merely absurd and disingenuous.

I wonder if the worst thing history will record Clinton of doing is how she destroyed the brains and souls of millions of her supporters.

Clinton pledged she wouldn't participate in Michigan. Then she participated. She then said the Michigan vote didn't count for anything. Now she's counting it.

And yet "no one made Obama remove his name"? That's your big excuse for Clinton's constant lies, pledge-breakings, deceptions and redefinitions of the English language? Has she destroyed the moral and logical center of your brain so much?


by Aris Katsaris on Sun May 25, 2008 at 03:31:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 2)

you are being intellectually dishonest, not me and not Clinton.  She pledged she wouldn't participate.  She didn't. END OF DISCUSSION.  Go beyond that and you're simply making stuff up.  There was no requirement for her to remove her name from the ballot.  If there was, then wouldn't it be the case that Obama was hypocritical in making the same pledge regarding FL but not removing his name from the ballot there?  If you want to call Clinton dishonest, then the same holds for Obama.  The fact is, he chose to remove his name in Michigan to gain a political advantage in Iowa. Period.  So, he's just as calculating as Clinton is.  He just misfigured that one.

Please don't question my intelligence.  You don't know anything about my intellectual capabilities.  Either win your argument on the merits or stfu.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 04:11:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

Umm, he couldn't remove his name from the Florida ballot. No one could because there was no way to do so.
Michigan, on the other hand, allowed candidates to remove their names from the ballot.
But this is neither here nor there. I prefer to go by the standards of democracy we set for foreign countries when we're discussing Florida and Michigan.
Just because someone punched a ballot doesn't mean that the election is legitimate. I could hold my OWN primaries outside my apartment and ask people who come by to vote. That doesn't make it a legitimate election. Saddam Hussein had elections every couple of years. He got 100% of the vote every time.
The people of Michigan and Florida were told by all candidates involved that their votes did not count and were not going to count. They were told this by the DNC and their state party as well. There was no dissenting voice prior to the primary taking place. So, the voters had every reason to believe that this vote was meaningless. This makes the primary illegitimate.
In Michigan, having the option of a single candidate plus undecided (and Kucinich) has the same legitimacy as an election in the former Soviet Union.
Both of these contests would not be considered legitimate elections if they were to take place in a foreign country. In fact, counting these contests would constitute voter fraud if this weren't a private process.

by EvilAsh on Sun May 25, 2008 at 05:24:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

I'm somewhat sympathetic to your position.  However, it isn't a clear-cut as you and other Obama supporters here would like to believe, and that's been my argument all along, if you care to look through my history.  There are valid positions on both sides, and you can't simply dismiss them with namecalling ("you" meaning generic you, not you specifically).  Here are some issues that need to be considered if you want to really understand the larger issue and not just automatically take one side:

1.  if supporters on both sides were told the election didn't count, that affects those who voted for both candidates equally.  It doesn't automatically boost one candidates' supporters propensities to vote over the other's.

2.  Washington state's "beauty contest" also doesn't count in terms of delegate assignment.  Does that mean Washington's primary was also a sham?  The fact that folks showed up indicates to me that many voters care and want their voices heard, and we shouldn't be too eager to just dismiss them.

3.  Regardless of the state's elected officials' choice to move up the primary date, (a) the DNC punishment of dropping all delegates is not required by any rules, and (b) this strategy punishes the voters, who are not the ones who broke DNC rules.  If I lived in MI (or FL), I'd be furious with both the state officials and the DNC, and this is one reason the inclusion of MI needs to be worked out and not simply dropped from consideration.  If Obama--who I will concede is most likely to be the nominee--wants to win FL and MI this fall, you can't just dismiss these states' primaries.

4.  Both candidates' positions on this issue have been equally "disingenuous."  It isn't just Clinton changing her position to suit her chances of obtaining the nomination.  The fact is that Obama has a vested interest in having these elections tossed out, and he has spoken out of both sides of his mouth.  Either the will of the people matters or it doesn't, and he seems to have flip-flopped on the issue of counting FL and MI repeatedly, just as she has.  But, I'm not vitriolic in bashing him and not her, while most Obama supporters here have only taken the view that HRC's position is the dishonest one.  

5. It's a little extreme to try to compare the MI and FL elections to 'elections' in other countries.  These states held elections with various candidates on their ballots, and their state officials certified the results.  That makes them legitimate, unlike elections in other countries where active voter suppression, threats of violence against the opposition, etc. play a large role.  Here, we have two elections that followed the principles of democracy--it's just that Obama chose to remove his name from MI's ballot.  You can't fault anyone but him for this, especially since he did it to gain a political advantage elsewhere--that's calculating and equally disingenuous to Clinton's flip-flopping.


by slynch on Sun May 25, 2008 at 11:59:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

In response to number 1:
I never stated that it affected one candidate's support more than the other. I stated that is constituted an illegitimate election. There is no metric we can use (except perhaps poll numbers) that can tell us how an orderly and legitimate election would have played out in either state.

I don't know what you're talking about with number 2, so I'm moving on to number 3:
They SHOULD be furious with the state officials, and MAYBE at the DNC. (The DNC REALLY wanted them to follow the rules of the primary. The state officials flat refused to budge. It turned into a game of chicken where the states lost.) I agree that something needs to be worked out. I believe that the punishment has accomplished what was necessary: that Florida and Michigan lost the mountains of money that would have flowed in due to the campaign and they were unable to affect the election earlier than other states. But we should have some sense of fairness when it comes to divvying up the delegates (and Obama's compromise in Michigan was pretty damn fair, Clinton gets a ten delegate advantage.)

4. You're going to have to expand on how Obama's position is disingenuous. Obama followed the lead of the DNC as well as every other major candidate other than Clinton. I haven't seen anything in the way of changing positions from the Obama camp (I hate, HATE the term flip-flopping and do NOT use it). You've set up a false dichotomy here (either the will of the people matters or it doesn't). That suggests that, in order to comply with the DNCs rules, Obama needs to go around saying that voters don't matter. OF COURSE he believes that the will of the people matter. But, it's also necessary to have rules and have penalties leveraged against those who REFUSE to get in line. If not, the next primary season will result in fifty contests on New Year's day.

5: Do you not consider millions of people hearing from every corner that their votes WILL NOT COUNT  voter supression?  


by EvilAsh on Sun May 25, 2008 at 03:48:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

1. not clear why the election is illegitimate, when the effect of the statement that the election wouldn't count affects both parties equally.  maybe we're disagreeing about what "illegitimate" means.  I'm saying the results are a valid reflection of the voters' intent.

2. My second point was that Washington state's primary didn't count either, so does that invalidate the results of it?  Based on your logic, it does, but I disagree.

3.  I probably agree with you, re. the agreement.  I think Clinton's rejection of the last compromise, at least as I remember it, was wrong.

4.  I disagree with the extent of punishment, and nothing required such a punishment.  To me, it really is pretty simple--if Obama does not fight to get Michigan's delegates seated, then he's contradicting his mantra about wanting all votes to count.  The punishment bit is just a convenient excuse to try to play the middle, but like I said, there's no requirement for that level of punishment.

5.  Again, see number 2.  I don't see that as voter suppression, certainly not on par with what occurs in other countries, but I understand your point.  


by slynch on Mon May 26, 2008 at 12:28:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

1) I disagree with your supposition that voter suppression doesn't exist unless it affects one party more than another. ANY attempt to deny or convince a voter that their vote WILL NOT be counted applies as voter suppression. If not, then one would have to prove that one party is affected MORE than another in order to prove that something is wrong. With a private ballot, that is literally impossible to prove.

2) And yes, if Washington State's primary doesn't count towards the electoral results and it was made clear by the state officials and candidates that their votes would not be used in the calculation of the nominee, then certainly the same standard applies. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but again, them's the rules agreed upon from the beginning. Personally, I think it would have been an excellent idea early last year for ALL THREE states to raise holy hell with the state government for screwing them out of the vote, but there was barely a peep.

4) There had to be SOME punishment. The DNC was trying to keep the schedule somewhere in the realm of sanity. Since all the states assumed the nominee would be decided early, they wanted their state to go as early as possible. Hell, the DNC was even giving away free delegates to states that went later in the process. If the states had gotten what they wanted and proceeded with the primaries with NO punishment, then our next primary would have primaries being held in mid May of the previous year. Or the new Super Tuesday would be New Year's Day. SOMETHING had to happen to Florida and Michigan to keep other states from pulling this shit in the future. Again, I think they have been well punished at this point, and NOT seating them would serve no purpose in that regard. Now it's just about fairness.

5) Of course the comparison to Hussein's Iraq isn't a 1 to 1 comparison, it was just an example. The point is that if we were to see a similar election happening in another country (the primary rival's name not on the ballot, post-vote altering of the rules) we would have serious questions about the validity of the outcome.

With regards to Michigan, there has been some interesting demographic and regional analysis (I can't find a link right now, but I'll post it if I find it again) of what would happen in Michigan if they would have followed the rules. They believe the most likely outcome would have been Obama by appx 4.5 points, with a margin of error of about 5 percent. So, it probably would have been REALLY close one way or the other.


by EvilAsh on Mon May 26, 2008 at 04:49:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

interesting--I had heard that if the primary were held again, he would win by that margin, but I hadn't heard anything retrospective about what would have happened at that point.  I was under the impression she would have still won, just not by as much.

Anyway, I think you're making good points.  We disagree a little, but probably not 100%


by slynch on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:04:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

Well, not so much at THAT point, but if Michigan would have voted at the time the DNC WANTED them to vote. I believe it would've been mid February.


by EvilAsh on Tue May 27, 2008 at 07:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (2.00 / 1)

Oh, and you've made some good points as well.

This is the type of discussion I like to see here and elsewhere. A legitimate attempt to make sense and share ideas rather than a whiny bitch-fest. The whole "You're undemocratic." "No, YOU'RE undemocratic!" crap I see drifting around here gets really old.


by EvilAsh on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

no kidding.  I have almost reached the point of not liking to visit the site lately.


by slynch on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

"She pledged she wouldn't participate.  She didn't. END OF DISCUSSION. "

Bullshit. She participated, and no amount of capitals and no amount of your pretense-insanity will deny this basic fact. Her name was intentionally left on the ballot: by all sane definitions of participation she participated.

But perhaps you can quote me some of this strange definition of "participation" by which a non-participant can claim to win a contest she didn't participate in.

"If there was, then wouldn't it be the case that Obama was hypocritical in making the same pledge regarding FL but not removing his name from the ballot there?"

Are you ignorant or merely again dishonest? Are you people again PRETENDING that you don't know that Obama and Edwards wanted to withdraw their names from there as well but that FL didn't allow them to, not unless they claimed they were no longer seeking the nomination?  A thing that has been explained to you a hundred thousand times?

I don't expect you to respond to this ofcourse. You people never respond to this.

"Please don't question my intelligence."

Then don't insult ours.

"You don't know anything about my intellectual capabilities."

True, I don't really believe or claim that you're unintelligent and ignorant is the benign explanation. What I believe is that you're something much worse than that: intentionally dishonest.

And I think that eventually there'll be a tremendous backlash against Clinton by her own  supporters when they eventually look back and realize the amount of unbelievable nonsense they had to swallow and spew on their candidate's behalf -- and all for nothing.


by Aris Katsaris on Sun May 25, 2008 at 05:25:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

"Bullshit. She participated, and no amount of capitals and no amount of your pretense-insanity will deny this basic fact. Her name was intentionally left on the ballot: by all sane definitions of participation she participated."

1.  Participation connotes an affirmative act on behalf of the candidate with respect to the election.  Clinton did nothing with respect to Michigan.

2.  Something as specific and drastic as removing one's name from the ballot is the type of particularity that would have been enumerated explicitly were it required.  

3.  The pledge was only ceremonial.

4.  If the pledge had any real world consequences, Obama would have been punished first because he breached it by affirmatively "campaigning" twice in Florida.

5.  The pledge is written in language distinct from the rules.  The word "participate" is nowhere to be found in Rule 20 C.1.b, while the word "campaign" is:

A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is set by a state's government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state. Candidates may, however, campaign in such a state after the primary or caucus that violates these rules. "Campaigning" for purposes of this section includes, but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that reaches a significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors in other states; using paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending emails or establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic voters are invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic organizations; or paying for campaign materials to be used in such a state. The Rules and Bylaws Committee will determine whether candidate activities are covered by this section.

Contrary to all of your rhetoric, Clinton violated neither the rules nor the pledge (which is insignificant because it has no binding consequences).  Obama violated both.  


Lifelong Democrat, civil rights advocate, former volunteer for Dem candidates. Now Independent.
by BPK80 on Sun May 25, 2008 at 06:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its Not a Question (none / 0)

"Participation connotes an affirmative act on behalf of the candidate with respect to the election."

How about her current argument that the votes should count, is that "affirmative" enough for you? Her participation there wouldn't be an issue, if it wasn't that she's now arguing the votes count. And that's pretty "affirmative" indeed.

Something as specific and drastic as removing one's name from the ballot is the type of particularity that would have been enumerated explicitly were it required.  

Most of the people that don't share the Clinton dictionary already understand the meaning of the word "participate". It's only linguists and the Clinton family who argues about what the meaning of "is" is.

"The pledge was only ceremonial."

So are all oaths. The oathbreaker is still contemptible.


by Aris Katsaris on Sun May 25, 2008 at 06:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]